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A beautiful part of southeastern Pennsylvania Fans of the World Series Champion Philadelphia Phillies   November 11, 2008   CHARLESTOWN TOWNSHIP PLANNING COMMISSION GREAT VALLEY MIDDLE SCHOOL, 7:30 P.M. November 11, 2008 Present: Andy Motel, Chairman, Mike Allen, Vice Chairman, Michael Churchill (arrived later), June Gorman, Wendy Leland, Sarah Peck (arrived later), Rick Reis, Surender Kohli, Tom Comitta, Linda Csete and those on the attached list. Call to Order: 7:30 P.M. Announcements - none Approval October 13, 2008 Minutes Mr. Motel asked if there are any corrections or changes to be made to the October 13, 2008 minutes. Mr. Allen had comments based on the minutes, following up on the landscaping for the Desfor property which he discussed via email with Mr. Kohli and Mr. Theurkauf. He noticed new plantings since last weekend and asked Mr. Theurkauf if this was what was approved. Mr. Theurkauf had answered that he could do a landscaping inspection. Mr. Kohli said the landscaping is not in compliance and the inspection should take place before any escrow money is released. He said he has corresponded with the Solicitor on this matter. There being no changes to the minutes, Mrs. Gorman moved to approve the Oct. 13, 2008 minutes, and Mr. Reis seconded. Mr. Motel called for discussion, and there being none, called the vote. Five were in favor. Update Design Review Committee Mr. Motel referred to the revised site plan for the Spring Oaks TND currently under review with the DRC. Tim Townes, John Mosteller and Eric Schrock were present for the discussion. Mr. Motel said the Planning Commission should limit discussion to the specific bullet points brought to them by the DRC, using a micro or focused approach and allow the committee to continue with the detail work. Mr. Allen said at the last DRC meeting, they addressed the historic resources survey with the applicant. The HARB had responded to the Planning Commission&s inquiry on the status of the survey, and Mr. Mosteller has spoken with HARB Chair Rosemary Philips regarding it. Mr. Mosteller said he needs clarification on Dale Fren&s proposal for conducting the survey. The proposal indicates there are five historic structures whereas he believes only two should be considered historic. Mrs. Leland, a HARB member in addition to being on the Planning Commission, suggested Mr. Mosteller meet with the HARB next Tuesday to reach an understanding of what is required. Mr. Mosteller said they didn&t plan to continue discussions on any items reviewed at the October 14th Planning Commission meeting as they need to work on those comments further. He said they are now meeting with the DRC twice a month, and encouraged the Planning Commission to email any questions they have during the process to Mr. Allen. Mr. Motel briefly explained the DRC process to the audience, and then Mr. Mosteller addressed the following items. Mr. Churchill and Ms. Peck arrived at this time. Parking Mr. Mosteller displayed a plan depicting Parking Requirements, including 120 required street spaces and 80 optional spaces. They used a formula of .65 spaces per unit, even though the ordinance allows .50 spaces for townhouses and .65 for single homes. He said this translates to 2,640 lineal feet of parking. There are 7,000 lineal feet of streets shown in the development. Additional optional parking was shown for the pool, clubhouse, and recreational areas. Some additional parking is located along the alleys. Mr. Mosteller said they used other existing TNDs as a guide. Parking along the main roads is located on one side of the street only. Ms. Peck said there&s a dearth of parking in the alleys for the townhouses and said there is room for more. Mr. Schrock said they put in pockets of additional parking in the alleys in areas owned by the Association. She said the spaces are cramped, but Mr. Mosteller indicated the parking spaces are twenty feet long, to accommodate larger vehicles. He added that they have additional parking available to them along the streets. Mr. Motel asked about the area of parking indicated for the Horseshoe Trail. Mr. Mosteller said they would be prepared to discuss this at the next meeting as details haven&t been worked out yet. Ms. Peck asked if the units have individual lot lines. Mr. Mosteller said yes, adding that the single houses would be in fee simple ownership. Cul-de-Sac Design Mr. Schrock said there were only two cul-de-sacs, located at opposite ends of the site in the townhome areas. These cul-de-sacs have been changed to a "Y" design referred to as a hammerhead design. He said the template used allows sufficient room for trash trucks to maneuver. Ms. Peck said it has an impractical feel, pointing out that children like to play in cul-de-sacs. Mr. Schrock indicated they need some direction on recreation. Ms. Peck said the design should balance aesthetics and environmental concerns with real living, which includes vehicular movement and pedestrians. Mr. Churchill asked if a half-bulb design could be considered. Mr. Comitta said the "Y" design was used in Nether Providence Township by a development built fifteen years ago by Bentley Homes. There are shade trees in the cusp of the "Y" and he&s not aware of any practical problems that have arisen there. Mr. Churchill said that unless there is a planning issue he thinks this should be up to the applicant. Mr. Mosteller said they can look at it again to make sure there are enough recreational opportunities. He said this matter wouldn&t hold them up on the engineering of the plan. Addition of Lot Lines Mr. Mosteller indicated that the lot lines have been added to the plans. Sidewalk Layout Mr. Schrock showed that the football-shaped open space areas have been somewhat squared off and don&t appear as semi-circles now. Mr. Mosteller said this provides additional room they needed for garages. Mr. Motel said it appears to be a good solution, and asked if there is sidewalk around these areas. Mr. Schrock said yes, as well as sidewalk along both sides of the street. Mr. Mosteller said the TND ordinance requires five feet rather than four feet for sidewalks, which they&re finding to be difficult to accommodate. He said he&d like to discuss the sidewalks in more detail at the next DRC meeting. Mr. Mosteller pointed out the locations of the trails on a sketch that includes sidewalks, cinder/woodchip trails and pedestrian walkways. Ms. Peck said the sidewalks don&t show that they continue off the western end of the site, and Mr. Schrock said they will be connected to areas adjacent to the site but since they need to tie into other plans, they&re not shown yet. He added that they made no attempt to connect to Whitehorse Road, which Mr. Churchill said was consistent with discussions at the last Planning Commission meeting. Street Right-of-Way width Mr. Allen said the DRC feels the right of way for the streets are tight but they don&t want to widen them. Mr. Kohli asked if a 24 foot cartway is acceptable, including the two-lane road and parking along one side, and Mr. Allen said yes. Mr. Schrock added that this is typical in TNDs. Mr. Mosteller said the DRC reviewed slides showing 8-8-8 feet, meaning 8 feet for each travel lane and 8 feet for the parking lane. Mr. Comitta indicated it&s best to keep parking on one side of the road rather than stagger it. Ms. Peck asked about rolled curb, which Mr. Townes said creates maintenance problems. He said an option might be a mountable curb, which has a triangular shape. It&s a 12 inch curb that tapers up to 3-4" in height. Mr. Churchill asked if causes people to park further from it, and Mr. Townes said it&s not conspicuous and not a problem. Mrs. Leland asked if there would be painted lines for the parking spaces, and Mr. Allen said there will be "tick" marks but they won&t be boxed out. The DRC wants to avoid the clutter of parking signage as well. Mr. Comitta checked the language in the TND ordinance and said the maximum street width is 34 feet, or 27 feet if there is parking on just one side, which allows ten foot driving lanes. Mr. Allen said it&s simplest to back down from the 40 foot right of way to get the widths. Mr. Mosteller said he&d like to revisit the possibility of four foot sidewalks, and Mr. Churchill agreed that five feet is large for a residential project like this. Utility Locations Mr. Schrock referred to the sketch showing utility service cross sections. He said they want to place the transformers for the townhouses in the alleys and not in front. They are needed every four houses and are 5 x 5 feet in size. Where there are no alleys they will have to be placed in front. Mr. Mosteller said that&s unavoidable and they&ll landscape accordingly. Mr. Churchill asked why there are so many, and Mr. Townes said it&s based in electricity loads. He noted that in West Chester Borough, they&re buried in the ground, but PECO won&t do this anymore. Ms. Peck said they can be spray painted to allow them to blend in a little better. Review Holy Ascension Antiochian Orthodox Church Wendy McLean, Esq., Linda Layer and David Porter of Rettew Associates, and Rev. Joseph Butts and Alan Pcsolyar from the Church were present to discuss the preliminary land development plan for the Holy Ascension Antiochian Orthodox Church. Mr. Motel recused himself and asked Mr. Allen to lead the discussion. Ms. Layer turned over copies of the letters notifying abutting landowners of the meeting per the SLDO to the Township Administrator. Mr. Allen said that he wanted to clarify a question on the 2006 Zoning Hearing Board decision on the property. He said the last page of the document, the Order, lists the four variances granted and indicates that "Any construction and installation permitted by the foregoing variances is conditioned upon review by and approval from the Township&s engineer and Planning Commission", and asked for the significance of that statement. Ms. McLean said she believes the Zoning Hearing Board didn&t want to take any authority from the Planning Commission or Supervisors with respect to the future conditional use application and land development plan that would be submitted, noting that at the time of the zoning hearing, they didn&t have fully engineered plans available. Mr. Allen reviewed items provided in the land development submission. He asked if he understands correctly that the traffic impact assessment indicates there shouldn&t be any traffic problems, which Mr. Kohli confirmed. Mr. Allen said this evening the Planning Commission was handed parking tabulations, which Ms. McLean said reflects the use of grass pavers for overflow parking areas. The tabulation addresses comment #8 on Mr. Kohli&s review letter dated 10/31/08. There are a total of 110 spaces, 20 of which are overflow spaces. They propose to build half of the required spaces now, plus all the overflow parking, and the other half of required spaces during the second construction phase. Ms. McLean addressed various items on the consultants& review letters as follows. Regarding items #18-38 on Mr. Kohli&s letter focusing on stormwater management issues, Ms. McLean said they will have their engineer meet separately with Mr. Kohli to work these out. Item #1 on Mr. Theurkauf&s review memorandum dated 11/3/08 (TCA review) and #17 on Mr. Kohli&s review letter refer to the tree removal and replacement requirements of the SLDO. Ms. McLean said they&ll need relief on the number of replacement trees required as the site is already heavily wooded except in the front. Mr. Reis asked if it would be possible to locate the trees on another site in the Township, as this plan calls for significant clear cutting. Mr. Allen said the tree replacement issue is a common one on wooded lots. He suggests resolving where the parking aisle and street trees can be located and then looking at what remains. Ms. McLean said they want their landscaping consultant to review the street tree requirements, as they have concerns there as well. Mr. Allen suggested they speak directly with Mr. Theurkauf on this. Item #2 on the TCA review and #10 on the Kohli review indicate that an Environmental Impact Assessment (EIA) Report is required. Ms. McLean said she&d like to scale back the scope of the report, the requirements of which seem to be excessive for this project. Mr. Allen agreed, indicating that the applicant should come back with a proposal of what they want in order for the Planning Commission to determine if it&s sufficient. Mr. Comitta referred the applicant to Section 707.D of the SLDO which allows them to make a written request for a waiver from specific requirements. Ms. McLean said Mr. Kohli&s review makes reference to the ruins located on the site, which she said consist of two stone ruins, and two other stone piles that no longer have any structure left. She said she&s not been able to find information on them from any historical registry. Of the two partial structures, they haven&t been identified although one near an old hand-dug well is conjectured to be a spring house. Resident Bob Devlin, 3149 Phoenixville Pike said he and his wife own the property to the east of the site and confirms this structure was a springhouse that was there when they moved to the Township in 1950. It was intact as recently as 20 years ago. He said the church property was part of Spring Mill Farm, the Yeager estate, which was located on both sides of Phoenixville Pike. Ms. McLean said Mr. Kohli wants these ruins addressed in the EIA report. She indicated the Church hasn&t decided what to do with them, although they have considered doing something decorative with one. Mr. Reis asked if the well is a safety hazard, and Ms. McLean said yes, they have to do something with it. Mr. Allen asked if they are sure it is a well, and Ms. McLean said that was the conclusion of the survey crew. Mr. Allen suggested the applicant speak with the HARB about the ruins. On Items #4-7 of Mr. Kohli&s review, Ms. McLean said they need to work out the details on the parking lot, and asked if the parking stall size can be reduced from 10 x 20 to 10 x18. After some discussion, it was determined that a size of 9 x 19 would be acceptable. Ms. McLean said this will help resolve their problem in providing island space. On item #18 of Mr. Kohli&s review which references the applicant&s request for a waiver to allow 12 and 15 inch storm drain piping, Ms. McLean indicated Mr. Kohli found this acceptable. Ms. McLean said the feedback provided this evening is all they needed at this point to move forward with a plan revision. She said it will be a challenge to design a good landscaping plan. Ms. Peck asked if the applicant was agreeable to providing replacement trees for an alternate site. Ms. McLean said they want to see what will be involved and consider the cost. Ms. Layer said in another township her firm was involved with a plan that allowed them to donate saplings to a riparian buffer project to fulfill their tree replacement requirements. Ms. McLean asked if the neighbors to the site had any additional comments. Both Mr. and Mrs. Devlin indicated they had nothing at this point but were impressed with the communication they&ve had so far with the church representatives. Mr. Allen asked if the applicant had received the lighting review letter from Stubbe Consulting, which was arranged by Tom Comitta. Ms. Layer said yes. Mr. Allen said lighting is a critical issue. Ms. Peck suggested that if they wanted to consider fluorescent lighting they should look for lower wattage and warmer colors that are now available. Mr. Motel pointed out that the Valley Forge Christian College did a beautiful job with lighting. Mr. Devlin added that he&s also concerned as a next door neighbor that the lighting not be excessive. Mr. Allen asked if the Planning Commission members had any additional questions on the review letters, and hearing none, went on to the drawings as follows: Page 1 - Under the list of SLDO waivers and modifications, the last item was cut off after 12" and 15". Ms. Layer said this should read 12" and 15" storm pipes. Page 4 - The layout depicts two dead end alleys, and Mr. Allen asked if turnarounds aren&t incorporated. Ms. Layer said this will be done in the second phase of construction. Page 11 - Describes the post and rail fence as "playground size". Mr. Porter said that reference will be deleted as it was a carryover from language copied from another plan. Ms. McLean clarified there was no playground planned for the site. Last Page - Template WB40 depicts the truck turnaround with a tractor trailer. Mr. Porter said they used the detail provided from the East Whiteland Fire Marshal, as the East Whiteland Volunteer Fire Company will service this site. Ms. Peck asked where the grass overflow parking is located and Ms. Layer pointed it out in an area above the seepage bed. Ms. McLean said she&ll investigate the ruins further and contact the HARB. Mr. Reis asked for the difference between a rain garden and a standard detention basin. Mr. Porter said a rain garden is shallower and includes native plantings. Mr. Porter wished to address two comments in Mr. Kohli&s review letter, items #30 and #31 relating to stormwater management facilities. He said they will request a waiver from the requirement that buildings be 30 feet away from stormwater facilities, asking instead for 5 feet. With regard to the requirement that rights-of-way be 50 feet away from stormwater facilities, they will ask for 20 feet. Mr. Kohli suggested they revisit the grading plan. Ms. McLean said the site didn&t give them a lot options. Mr. Porter said Mr. Kohli had suggested adding retaining walls and a boulder wall to minimize grading. Ms. Peck said one option, although somewhat expensive, would be adding a keystone wall to the interior of the basin. Ms. McLean asked if grading and landscaping would be more attractive. Mr. Motel said they should work these issues out with Mr. Kohli. Adjournment: Ms. Peck moved to adjourn and Mrs. Gorman seconded. All were in favor. The meeting was adjourned at 9:30 P.M. The meeting was immediately reconvened to address item #39 on Mr. Kohli&s letter, that Component 4A of the Sewage Facilities Planning Module for the Church be addressed by the Planning Commission. Mr. Churchill moved to approve Planning Module Component 4A for the Holy Ascension Antiochian Orthodox Church, and Ms. Peck seconded. Mr. Allen, Mr. Churchill, Ms. Peck and Mrs. Gorman were in favor. The meeting was adjourned at 9:31 P.M. Respectfully submitted, Linda M. Csete Planning Commission Secretary   Home      Site Overview      Contact Us Please report any problems with this site by clicking here. Site development, maintenance and funding by Township resident Jacob D. Merriwether. Hosting by PLH Worldgroup Communications, Inc.