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October 5, 2006     October 10, 2006     October 24, 2006   CHARLESTOWN TOWNSHIP PLANNING COMMISSION GREAT VALLEY MIDDLE SCHOOL, 7:30 P.M. October 5, 2006 Present: Planning Commission Members Andy Motel, Chairman, Mike Allen, Sarah Peck, Michael Churchill, Supervisors Mike Rodgers, Kevin Kuhn and Charlie Phillips, and Tim Townes. Call to Order: 7:35 PM Ordinance Review Traditional Neighborhood Development Ordinance The Planning Commission continued review of the proposed draft TND ordinance discussing design guidelines, definitions, and the body of the text. Additional review will continue at the next meeting on October 10, 2006. Respectfully Submitted, Andrew P. Motel Chairman, Commission Secretary     CHARLESTOWN TOWNSHIP PLANNING COMMISSION GREAT VALLEY MIDDLE SCHOOL, 7:30 P.M. October 10, 2006 Present: Andy Motel, Chairman, June Gorman, Sarah Peck, Wendy Leland (arrived later), Michael Churchill (arrived later), Rick Reis, Surender S. Kohli, P.E., Tom Comitta, Linda Csete, Township Administrator and those on the attached list. Call to Order: 7:48 PM Announcements - none Approval of Minutes September 26, 2006 and October 5, 2006 minutes Mrs. Gorman moved to approve the minutes from September 26, 2006 and October 5, 2006, and Mr. Reis seconded. Mr. Motel called for discussion, and there being none, called the vote. Four were in favor. Plan Review Tom Fillippo - Sketch Plan Tom Fillippo, owner, Mr. Fillippo's son Tom, Angelo Capuzzi of Chester Valley Engineers, and Joe Gambone were present to discuss Mr. Fillippo's sketch plan for a 2 story, 32,600 square foot office building, with 163 parking spaces on a 5.5 acre parcel at the southeast corner of Route 29 and Whitehorse Road. The property is adjacent to the Post Office Building and its parking lot, and is bordered by the Turnpike, Devault Lane, Whitehorse Road, and Route 29. Mr. Capuzzi said the site is located in the Business-1 District, and the proposed building is a by-right use that meets the bulk and area and setback requirements. Impervious surface coverage will be close to the maximum of 40%. There is an 8-10% slope from the rear of the property sloping downward toward Whitehorse Road. The building would be built into the slope so that two stories would be seen from Whitehorse Road. They propose a separate entrance from Whitehorse Road into the property. He said Mr. Comitta suggested accessing the site from the existing Devault Post Office driveway/parking lot, but Mr. Capuzzi said this would mean changing the entrance to Devault Foods and take away most of the parking for the Post Office. He said they will confer with PennDOT for suggestions. (Mr. Churchill arrived at this time.) Mr. Capuzzi said the site has well draining soils, no high ground water areas, and only isolated areas of steep slopes outside the building envelope. Most of the site is open ground with few trees except for an area toward the rear for which they will do a tree inventory. Because of the steep slopes, they will need a retaining wall in the front of the site along Whitehorse Road and along Devault Lane. There will be some fill along Whitehorse Road, so the new parking lot will be higher than the street by about six feet. He said they will be able to meet the Chester County Conservation District's requirements for soil & erosion control. Mr. Capuzzi said they plan to utilize public water and sewer. Mr. Motel asked if they have confirmed whether there is sewer capacity with the Valley Forge Sewer Authority, and Mr. Capuzzi said, not yet. They estimate they will need 1,300 gallons/day assuming 1 employee per 250 square feet each using 10 gallons of water per day. Mr. Capuzzi said about 10,000 square feet of the new building will be used by Devault Foods. Mr. Motel asked how many parking spaces are currently at the Devault Foods facility, and Mr. Kohli said more than 100. Mr. Churchill pointed out they also receive customers at that facility, and Mr. Motel added that they receive truck deliveries as well. Mr. Motel said the Planning Commission has been working on a Traditional Neighborhood Development (TND) plan for the Devault Area since May, and asked if Chester Valley Engineers has ever done a TND development. Mr. Comitta said they were involved with Eagleview in Uwchlan Township. Mr. Motel said they were looking at mixed use on the site of this proposed office building, which might include offices on the second floor and commercial on the first floor. He asked if the back of the first floor would be windowless, and Mr. Capuzzi said no. Mr. Comitta said if the TND Plan comes to fruition, and Whitehorse Road is converted into a boulevard, it would be possible to have one or two entrances off Whitehorse, but for now, he recommends it share an access with the Post Office. Mr. Capuzzi reiterated the problem with parking at the Post Office, as this would take much of the parking away. (Mrs. Leland arrived at this time.) Mr. Motel asked about Devault Lane, and Mr. Fillippo said they'd like to take ownership of it as a private lane, adding that Devault Foods maintains it now anyway. Mr. Motel asked Mr. Gambone if he had ever constructed in a TND, and he responded no. He said this building could have some professional office use, but that retail would be very difficult. For example, a restaurant needs access for rear delivery, and more complicated piping and ventilation. Mr. Motel asked if they would be interested in a third story if the height restriction wasn't an issue. He also asked what the limiting factor on the proposed building is, and Mr. Capuzzi said the impervious coverage. He said it would help them if the parking lot size could be reduced from the required 10 x 20 to 9 x 18. Mr. Motel indicated the Planning Commission would be flexible. Mr. Motel said they've involved Mr. Townes in their TND discussions with regard to the Spring Oaks property, and would like to involve Devault Foods in the discussions as well, to see if they could achieve their goals in a TND setting. Ms. Peck said the site lends itself to a more economical construction, and suggested they take advantage of the grade differential by putting the parking under the building, and going higher. Mr. Gambone doubted underground parking would work for them economically. Mr. Gambone asked Mr. Comitta where there is a building with first floor retail and second floor offices, and Mr. Comitta named Lantern Hill in Doylestown. Mr. Gambone said that's in a more urban town setting. He doubts there is enough draw for retail in Devault, and the retaining wall would hamper visibility from major roads. Retail use would preclude using the Post Office driveway as an access way. Mr. Motel asked him to consider the future traffic projections provided by the turnpike commission once the slip ramp is constructed. He added that with a TND, the Commission is considering splitting Whitehorse Road into a boulevard so traffic is slowed down. They are thinking about restaurant, drugstore, and bank uses for the area. Spring Oaks will add 126 units to the area within walking distance. Mr. Fillippo said his focus is on what is the best marketable use for the land. He acknowledges there is a lot of traffic, but questioned whether people outside the neighborhood would stop. Mr. Gambone said the economics are about a wash, and rents would be comparable. He said the exterior can be made to look more retail without being so. Ms. Peck said it's a challenging site for retail, but professional services may work and can be built on more of a neighborhood scale. Mr. Motel asked what would help them consider mixed use, and named the following: sufficient office space for their needs, relief on parking requirements and additional height. He asked how many people would live in the Spring Oaks development, and Mr. Townes estimated 3 1/2 per unit, or 400. Mr. Motel added that the Planning Commission is also talking about age restricted housing on the Tyler-Griffin tract, with some commercial use. Examples of these uses would include professional services, realtor, insurance, medical, financial, hair salon, pharmacy and restaurant. Mr. Gambone said the office-type uses would work, but a pharmacy wouldn't. He said they wouldn't mind going after a business like Starbucks, but that would be very unlikely. He doesn't want to be restricted to first floor retail. Ms. Peck said the Commission is talking about a net add, not suggesting they take away the amount of office space permitted. Mr. Gambone said that constructing for retail use is more complex, requiring individual HVAC and electrical service, and mechanicals and deliveries accessed from the rear. The back of this site isn't service-oriented. Mr. Motel asked if Devault Lane can be utilized, but Mr. Capuzzi said they see it as more of an emergency access route than a major access way. Mr. Churchill asked if they can see a cross-section of the site, and Mr. Capuzzi said he would provide one. Ms. Peck asked what materials would be used, and Mr. Fillippo said they hadn't decided yet, but he said he wants it to look attractive, noting that he not only works but lives in the area. Mr. Motel said they would like to keep the dialog open. Mr. Fillippo asked what the timeline is for the TND ordinance, and Mr. Motel said they hope to have a revised draft ready by the end of October. He said they realize the ordinance has to have practical application. He said Mr. Gambone's involvement and input would be welcome to the process. Bell & Clapper Bed and Breakfast Inn - Conditional Use Application William and Denyce Rhoad, owners, were present to discuss their application for conditional use approval for the operation of a bed and breakfast inn on their 6 acre property at 4513 State Road as an adaptive reuse of a historic property. Mrs. Rhoad said the Bell & Clapper has a history as a Bed & Breakfast from the 1940's to the 1970's. She said the family purchased the house, built ca. 1803-1810, in 1910, and ownership went in and out of the family until they bought the property in 1999. She said the house is huge and upkeep is expensive. A B & B would help them maintain the house and let people see the historic building with its beautiful woodwork and mantles, and acquaint themselves with the history behind it. Past owners welcomed visitors from the Valley Forge Army Hospital, and hosted wedding receptions, luncheons and teas. Mrs. Rhoad said there are four rooms available for rent. Two of the rooms each have a private bath. One is a suite of two rooms with a private bath. Mr. Motel asked about parking, and Mr. Kohli said four spaces are needed for this use in addition to their own parking area. Mr. Motel asked who lives in the house now, and Mrs. Rhoad said just the two of them. They would stay in the "owners' suite" in a back area on the second floor that was actually used as a caretaker's apartment in the past. Mr. Motel asked what kind of renovations would be needed, and Mrs. Roads said none are needed; they just need to move furniture. Mr. Kohli asked about compliance to Building Code IRC 2003 with respect to fire safety, such as egress windows and smoke detectors. He said there is a special section in the code for adaptive reuse. Egress windows must measure 3 x 2 feet. Mr. Rhoad said the windows in the bedrooms are large enough to comply. Mr. Motel said they need to see a site plan showing distances and scale, parking, and the location of the windows. He asked if the water had been tested again, and Mr. Rhoad said they will be doing so later this week. Mr. Motel asked about stormwater management. Mr. Rhoad said they won't be changing anything outside the house, as they already have sufficient parking. Mr. Kohli said if that's the case, stormwater management won't be an issue. Mr. Motel asked if there are other structures on the property, and Mr. Rhoad said there are two underground root cellars, the ruins of a turnout shed, and a tin tractor shed. Mr. Comitta said this is an excellent use for this site, and recommended the township facilitate the process to the extent possible. The applicant will return with additional information for the November 14th meeting. Tyler Griffin Conditional Use Application Tim Townes of J. Loew & Associates was present to discuss the conditional use application for the 23.9 acre Tyler Griffin tract at the northeast corner of Charlestown Road and Phoenixville Pike where they propose to construct a 3-story 150,000 square foot office building. Mr. Townes said after reviewing the comments from Mr. Kohli and Mr. Comitta's office, they shifted the State Road access to the east toward Phoenixville to avoid the steep slopes so a conditional use will no longer be necessary. He said he'll send a letter withdrawing the application to the Township Office. They will still require a variance for crossing prohibitive slopes along Charlestown Road that were created by PennDOT when they widened the road. Ms. Peck asked why they don't move the Charlestown Road access further up the slope, but Mr. Townes said this would create additional grading problems. Ms. Peck said she had concerns with traffic stacking on Charlestown Road to turn into the property. Mr. Townes said he doesn't envision any stacking to enter the site, likening it to the access at their Brandywine Square development near Helzberg Diamonds in East Caln Township, which has a busier but similar access that doesn't have a stacking problem. Ordinance Review Increase Open Space Requirement in FR District to 50% Mr. Motel tabled discussion until the October 24th meeting. Traditional Neighborhood Development Ordinance The Planning Commission continued its review of the proposed ordinance, focusing on sections 2204, 2205 and 2206. Mr. Motel said he and Mr. Allen met with Mr. Comitta Monday and passed along the comments from the October 5th meeting. Mr. Comitta will have a revised draft prior to the October 24th meeting. SECTION 2204.B. Mr. Comitta asked for clarification on housing types to be required in TND Area 1 as shown in the Development Strategy Plan. The draft called for minimum and maximum percentages of three housing types including single-family detached units, duplex/twin units, and townhouse units. At the October 5th work session, the Planning Commission concluded all three should have a minimum percentage of 20% and that there was no need to list maximum percentages since the minimums alone would assure enough of a mix. Mr. Comitta asked Mr. Townes if he had reservations toward the 20% minimums. Mr. Townes said he no longer has a concern after taking some time after the meeting to consider various combinations and determining they could work. Mr. Reis said in reality most developers would go for a 60-20-20 mix, and here would build the most in single family homes if allowed, but Mr. Townes said not necessarily, as in some cases a large townhouse may be more marketable than a small single home. Mr. Townes also pointed out that the more townhomes than single family homes, the greater the ability to increase open space by building a more compact development. He said he does have concerns about the twin/duplex, which is basically a two-unit townhouse. Ms. Peck said she thinks they should focus on the entire Area 1, not just the Quigley tract. She thinks more variety is needed in the mix, partly to accommodate shifts in the market. She suggests adding more housing types to choose from. Mr. Motel asked Mr. Comitta to suggest additional housing types, perhaps increasing the options to 4 or 5. Ms. Peck said with more options, a developer would have the option of not including twin/duplex units in their plan. Mr. Churchill said more options would also provide for greater variation in pricing of the units. SECTION 2205. Mr. Motel said Mr. Allen made a good suggestion to add pictograms to this section to better illustrate the area and bulk regulations and building appearance and layout. SECTION 2205.A.1 Change the lot size range for single family dwellings to 5,000-9,000 square feet. SECTION 2205.A.4. Reduce the square footage minimum lot size for civic uses to 15,000 square feet. SECTION 2205.B.1. Change the lot width range for single family dwellings to 70 - 130 feet, and don't provide a depth measurement. Mr. Churchill commented that building separation is a key issue in determining the appropriate lot widths. SECTION 2205.B.2. Change the unit width (not lot width) for duplex/twins to 25-40 feet. SECTION 2205.B.3. Change the unit width (not lot width) for townhouses to 20-36 feet. SECTION 2005.B.4. Consider omitting a lot width minimum for civic uses - to be discussed later. SECTION 2005.C. Mr. Churchill said more variation is needed for minimum yard depths or they will all be built to the minimum. Mr. Comitta will work on this section. SECTION 2005.D. Mr. Comitta said the maximum impervious surface coverage percentage will probably need to be increased, and should vary according to lot size. He will review this section. SECTION 2005.E.2. Mr. Churchill said the 48 foot maximum building height will allow for more variety in architectural features, such as dormers and steeper roofs. Mr. Kohli clarified that height is defined from the average grade to the midpoint of the roof. The maximum height was changed to 45 feet. SECTION 2005.E.3. Retain the 2.5 maximum number of stories, which could be needed for a studio above a garage or a small cottage. There was discussion on how large an accessory structure, such as a detached garage or granny flat, should be permitted in relation to the principal structure. Ms. Peck said some percentage of the footprint of the principal structure should be used as a maximum size for the accessory structure. SECTION 2206 There was discussion on whether to allow townhouses in TND District Area 2. Mr. Townes suggested allowing townhouses, but smaller ones. Mr. Motel said live-work units and flats/apartments over retail are two other residential types to consider. He asked the Planning Commission members for their opinion as to whether residential units should be permitted in Area 2 and received the following comments: Mrs. Leland - The point of the TND is to mix uses. There are already homes proposed for Spring Oaks, and another area for a proposed age-restricted community. Commercial and retail uses need an area, so she would only be in favor of limited residential in TND-2, with a cap. Mr. Motel agreed a limited amount of residential should be considered, which might enhance pedestrian use, and as Tom Comitta pointed out at the August meeting, too much commercial might create a mall area effect including greater parking that it requires as well as the potential that smaller stores would conclude they could survive only with a large anchor store to bring in shoppers. Mr. Reis agreed that a limited amount would be acceptable. Mr. Churchill said the amount should be very limited and not take away from the open space. Mrs. Gorman said they should be careful not to create a community that is isolated from the remainder of the TND and is concerned that allowing townhouses in Area 2 would cause this. Ms. Peck said it should be permitted, with the amount based on a smaller percentage of the entire development to ensure sufficient commercial space. Mr. Motel said they would continue review on October 24th with commercial square footages. Mr. Townes provided the following information on square footage and parking requirements for various types of commercial/retail establishments: Anchor Retail (Barnes & Noble) - requires 30,000 square feet Family Restaurant (Applebys, Ruby Tuesday, TGI Friday) 5,000 square feet, 125 parking spaces Pharmacy (Walgreens) 12,000 - 15,000 square feet, with a drive thru, 65 parking spaces Fast Food Restaurant 3,000 - 5,000 square feet, 65-100 parking spaces A third meeting will be held on October 24th to continue TND review. Adjournment: The meeting was adjourned at 10:50 P.M. The next meeting is scheduled for October 24, 2006, 7:30 P.M. at the Great Valley Middle School. Respectfully submitted, Linda M. Csete Planning Commission Secretary     CHARLESTOWN TOWNSHIP PLANNING COMMISSION GREAT VALLEY MIDDLE SCHOOL, 7:30 P.M. October 24, 2006 Present: Andy Motel, Chairman, Mike Allen, Vice Chairman, June Gorman, Sarah Peck, Wendy Leland, Michael Churchill, Rick Reis, Surender S. Kohli, P.E., Tom Comitta, Linda Csete, Township Administrator and those on the attached list. Call to Order: 7:34 PM Announcements - none Plan Review Holy Ascension Orthodox Church Mr. Motel recused himself from the discussion. Dave Beideman, P.E., and several members of the parish council were present to continue discussions on a sketch plan for the Holy Ascension Orthodox Church, which proposes to build a church on the 10 acre Smith property at 3131 Phoenixville Pike. Mr. Beideman displayed the sketch plan, indicating they decided to take out the proposed lower parking area, which he said is not essential to the plan. Instead, they will grade and flatten the area, which can possibly be used as a play area for the children. He said the parking calculations for the church and Sunday school will require a minimum of 120 parking spaces. The Church expects they will actually need 130-140 spaces. Mr. Allen said before grading and filling in the steep slope area, the applicant should go over it with Mr. Kohli. Mr. Beideman said he would plan to meet with Mr. Kohli on grading and also on the stormwater management plan. Mr. Churchill asked if any stormwater calculations had been done yet. Mr. Beideman said no, but they know the retention basin won't be able to handle all the water, so they expect to employ underground retention under the parking lot. He said he thinks the stormwater can be taken care of. Mr. Allen said they should try to make the basin as natural looking as possible since it's near the front of the property. Mr. Beideman said there is room for landscaping. He added that they will keep the trees between the church building and the former front parking lot area. Mr. Churchill asked about septic, and Mr. Beideman said they propose public sewer, for which they will have to go through the planning module process. He said he believes the Sewer Authority has sufficient capacity for the project. By omitting the parking in the front yard, they reduce the variances needed. They will also need conditional use approval for construction in steep slopes. Mr. Beideman said at the last meeting there was a question on the amount of disturbance, and he now estimates approximately 16% disturbance in steep slopes that can't be avoided. There is less disturbance in the very steep slopes, mainly due to the long, narrow slopes put in by the Turnpike Commission for drainage. He estimates this to be 2% disturbance. The total disturbance on the site is 53%. Mr. Beideman displayed a cross section plan. Mr. Allen said they'd like to see a 1:1 cross section through the building, as the plan shown has a distorted scale and makes it hard to see how it relates to the road. Mr. Allen asked what they see as their next step, and Mr. Beideman said they'll go to the Zoning Hearing Board for three variances: use, disturbance of very steep slopes, and disturbance of a high ground water area for the parking lot and retention basin. Mr. Beideman asked if the Planning Commission would send a memo to the Zoning Hearing Board recommending the variances, and Mr. Allen said they don't typically do so. Mr. Churchill said if the Planning Commission feels it is appropriate, they can advise the Zoning Hearing Board that they believe the use is consistent with the surrounding uses. Mr. Kohli said he understands the variance for use, but asked why go for a variance for disturbance of high ground water area (Worsham soils) if it can be avoided. Mr. Beideman said if they avoided it, they would be unable to get all their parking spaces. Mr. Kohli said he'd like to have more information on alternatives. Mr. Churchill moved to recommend the use to the Zoning Hearing Board as appropriate for the site, and Mrs. Leland seconded. Mr. Motel called for discussion, and their being none, called the vote. All were in favor. Ordinance Review Increase Open Space Requirement in FR District to 50% Mr. Motel said they were asked to revisit the open space requirement by members of the Board of Supervisors. He said there would be no vote this evening; they would just review the issue before addressing it more fully at the November 14th meeting. Mr. Motel said he looked at the ordinance and has concerns that increasing the open space requirement would exact a penalty on the landowner. He said he's not inclined to vote in favor of the increase. Mr. Allen said two of the Supervisors requested the increase be considered, and neither was in attendance at the meeting tonight. He said they need to provide their rationale for considering the change. Mr. Churchill said they should revisit the reasoning when the Planning Commission developed the first open space option ordinance that called for 40% open space. Mr. Motel said the first ordinance was developed in 1999, and several amendments were made to the ordinance since that time. Each time, the open space option was expanded. First, it was expanded to include properties with historic structures, and later to properties adjacent to other eligible properties, and finally, it was decided to make the Open Space Option the by-right use in the FR District. He said in the plans that have since been approved, no lots are that close to the 40,000 square foot minimum. He said the Dixon subdivision lots are closer to 50,000, which is typically needed to fit the larger homes called for today, the septic and back up septic sites and the on-site well. Mr. Kohli said that the Ashford subdivision, which recently received preliminary approval for a 5-lot subdivision, had difficulty meeting the 40% requirement. Mr. Allen noted it was a challenging site and that the 40% requirement in general was intended to be density-neutral. He said when the Township first proposed it, the County Planning Commission was pushing for 50%, presumably because this was their goal countywide. Mr. Reis asked if Charlestown's percentage was ever anything other than 40% and Mr. Allen said no. Mr. Allen said he worked out an example for a flat 108 acre site, assumed 15% is needed for infrastructure, and found that the lot yield was the same whether using the open space plan or conventional subdivision plan. Initially, the 40% open space plan would yield 59 homes while the conventional lot plan yielded 50 homes, but in reality, by the time the process nears completion, the conventional plan would have lost some lots and end up about the same, at 50 lots. This is because in the conventional plan, the netted out land isn't counted at all, but in the open space plan some can be counted in the 40% open space area. Ms. Peck asked for the purpose of changing the open space percentage, noting that if the intention is to promote more open space, there are other ways to incentivize the process. Mr. Churchill said whoever is proposing the change needs to provide the Planning Commission with some calculations to review. Mr. Allen said he'd like the County Planning Commission to weigh in. Mr. Motel asked the Secretary to re-circulate the county review letter for the Dixon subdivision, where they recommended increasing the percentage of open space. Mr. Kuhn said when the first open space option ordinance was drafted, the County was promoting 50% open space everywhere, and Charlestown isn't representative of the County in general. Mr. Motel said the Township's open space regulations were designed to arrest sprawl but with a density neutral impact. Mr. Kuhn said unless the calculations prove otherwise, 50% open space seems to be pushing it. Mr. Motel asked if members of the public had any questions. John Thompson said that smaller lots create less expensive homes, and questioned whether that is good for the Township. Mr. Churchill said the homes being built on the open space development properties in Charlestown now are no smaller than on the conventional lots. Mr. Allen agreed this hasn't been a problem so far, but Mr. (John) Thompson said this would be true only if the lot is flat. Ms. Peck suggested they get the facts, look up the lot size and house size in the recent developments: Ashford, Deerfield, and Dixon as open space developments and Scipione (Highlands) as a conventional lot development. Mr. Kohli said the homes at the Dixon subdivision are large and take up most of the lot. Some lots are around 40,000 square feet if they don't have many constraints. Mr. Reis asked about the footprint of the houses, and Mr. Kohli said about 2,400 square feet. Mr. (John) Thompson said if they increase the open space requirement to 50%, his family will lose 5-10 lots on their soon-to-be proposed subdivision. He said his family is all for open space, and that the Township says it's in favor of "legitimate rights of open space" and hopes they will keep this under consideration. Mr. Churchill asked John Thompson if he had worked out the yield both ways, and he said no. Mr. Allen said the Thompson land doesn't have a lot of constraints, but Ben Thompson disagreed, saying he ran calculations that showed they would lose 7.4 to 8 lots at a minimum on their 200 acres, but said he'd like to double check his figures with the other open space requirements such as the contiguity requirement. Mr. (Ben) Thompson asked why the supervisors pushing the ordinance aren't here this evening, stating he's curious as to their intent. He said that the Thompson family owns about 10% of the potential build-out land left in the Township, and finds their consideration of the increase of open space to 50% to be highly discriminating. He asked when the Planning Commission will discuss the ordinance further, and Mr. Motel said they will discuss it on November 14th and decide whether to make a recommendation one way or the other. Ordinance to Determine Number of Horses Permitted on Properties over 25 acres in Size Mrs. Gorman distributed research she prepared on the density of horses. Mr. Motel tabled the discussion until November 14, 2006 so the Planning Commission has time to review the information. Approval of Minutes October 10, 2006 minutes Mrs. Leland moved to approve the minutes from October 10, 2006, and Mr. Reis seconded. Mr. Motel called for discussion, and there being none, called the vote. All were in favor. Continued Ordinance Review Traditional Neighborhood Development Ordinance The Planning Commission continued its review of the proposed ordinance, focusing on sections 2206-2209. Mr. Motel explained the review process to the audience, stating that the Planning Commission has been going through a very preliminary draft of the TND ordinance for the Devault Area for the past 4-5 meetings. Each Planning Commission member added comments to the ordinance that are shown as color-coded. They are going through each section and discussing all the comments and making revisions. Mr. Motel distributed pictures of a TND outside Chicago, IL, and pointed out a caf that has no external frontage. He also distributed a picture of live-work units in Eagleview. Mr. Comitta said the Planning Commission asked him to expand the guidelines for office-over-retail use, and he provided photos. To facilitate discussions on commercial land use and the percentages of each use, he distributed handouts depicting the Willowdale Town Center and Goshen Crossing. He said he met briefly with Mr. Motel and Mr. Allen yesterday, and they discussed some of the smaller scale uses shown in these developments. Willowdale includes 15,000 square feet of retail space in two buildings, one perpendicular to the other, and four out-parcel buildings, including a real estate office, state representative's office, and day care facility. The buildings have two stories and one includes a Bistro. Counting the out-buildings, the whole center contains about 40,000-50,000 square feet and has no residential. It is located at the Southeast corner of Routes 926 and 82. Goshen Crossing is a one-story building including 20,000 square feet anchored by Eckerd Drugs and the Pizza Peddler, containing about 8,000 square feet each. There is also a separate building with a bank. Mr. Reis asked about parking, and Mr. Comitta said there are approximately 4 spaces per 1,000 square feet of commercial space, perhaps a little more. Mr. Comitta said if the Planning Commission chooses to limit the footprint size of any open commercial building, he considers 20,000 and below as what is found in a smaller commercial area. He noted the Parkway Center south of West Chester University on Rt. 202 is about 40,000 square feet, and one story. He said leasing agents say they want a critical mass of 10,000 square feet, then bump up to 20,000, then 40,000. Over that size a large grocery store will look to come in. They are typically 65,000 square feet in size themselves. Smaller scale commercial would be 10,000-20,000. He said Ludwig's Corner, at Routes 401 and 100, is close to 40,000 square feet. Ms. Peck asked for the ratio of office to retail space. Mr. Comitta said at Willowdale, about 1/3 is office, noting the entire 2nd floor is office space. Ms. Peck asked how much retail would be needed on a neighborhood-commercial scale, and Mr. Comitta responded 26,000 to 28,000 square feet. Mr. Motel asked for the acreage at Willowdale, and Mr. Comitta said between 8.5 and 9 acres, adding it was developed by Dixon-Stroud. Ludwig's Corner is about 6.5-7 acres in size, having less green space than Willowdale. Mr. Reis asked about parking at Willowdale, and Mr. Comitta said no parking is seen from the road. It averages 3.8 spaces per 1,000 square feet. Mr. Motel asked how the traffic passing Willowdale is compared to Devault, and Mr. Comitta said it's comparable. Mr. Churchill said he's noticed there's little traffic on Saturdays at Willowdale other than at the Bistro. Mr. Comitta said Ludwig's Corner and Willowdale are the only two small-scale examples he has in the area, noting that most leasing agents want to see 20,000 square feet and above to reach a critical mass and create a certain synergy among the uses. Ms. Peck said the mix of uses is important, and said the shopping center on King Street in Malvern is very successful with a Wawa, Englund's Apparel, a butcher shop, children's clothing shop and pharmacy. It's within walking distance of the train and many residences. Mr. Motel asked for the square footage there, and Mr. Comitta estimated it was in the 20,000-30,000 foot range. Mr. Comitta said at a conference he attended he learned that the national companies are looking at complexes with 80,000 square feet and above; anything less is left to the smaller local companies. He said a lot of ordinances focus on design standards for residential, but for commercial they focus more on parking, impervious coverage and similar issues. At Willowdale, the developer wanted something fashionable, and developed their own standards that were not present in East Marlborough Township's ordinance. Mr. Motel said there are 37 acres in TND-2 in Devault, and the task is to arrive at the amount of commercial they are comfortable with. Mr. Comitta said Ms. Peck suggested making market-based decisions, and if they choose to cap the square footage at 20,000 or less, they are in fact being market-based. The question then is how many buildings to allow. Mr. Churchill said based on the examples of Willowdale and Ludwig's Corner, having 40,000 square feet of commercial on 6-7 acres (Ludwigs) or 9 acres (Willowdale), this could be done in Devault if they chose to. Mr. Motel said the amount of retail they want is the critical question. Since they don't want a shopping center per se, they have to set out a maximum amount of retail. Mr. Churchill asked the group if they felt Devault could meet the minimum square footage that would be needed, and all were generally in agreement that they could. Mr. Comitta said as a general rule you can fit 10,000 square feet of building area per acre. Two 20,000 square foot buildings with some separation between them would create a good center without being overpowering. Mr. Motel said they need to come up with a number for the TND-2 area, and added he arranged for Perry Morgan, recommended by Ms. Peck, to work on sketches relating to Mr. Fillippo's parcel for which he brought in a sketch plan for a 2-story commercial building with a 16,000 sq. ft. footprint to the last meeting. Ms. Peck said that property is the gateway to the area, and other than the Quigley tract, will set the tone for the rest of the TND. The way the land slopes toward Whitehorse Road creates an opportunity to include retail along the front of the building. Mr. Reis asked if others agree all retail needs rear-loading, as Mr. Fillippo's builder stated at the last meeting. Mr. Townes said it's not needed for smaller retail, for example a Subway shop, small deli, gift shop, etc. These can take deliveries in the front. Mr. Allen said this site has a not-insignificant slope. If retail is in the front, retail parking must be in front too, with parking for the offices in the back. He thinks this could work, and would not look like a regular office building. Ms. Peck suggested some angled parking in the front. Mr. Motel said you can get 25% more parking with angled parking than with parallel parking. Mr. Motel asked if anyone wanted a grocery store in the area, and all said no. Ms. Peck qualified a smaller specialty grocery store like Trader Joes would be acceptable to her. Mr. Comitta distributed information on Haile Village in Florida. He said the Village Center contains about 85 acres, half residential and half commercial. Mr. Motel said if they arbitrarily look at 60,000 square feet of commercial space for the TND-2 area, they will want other amenities there, such as a municipal building and small park. He said he spoke to Lt. Brian Naylor, the commander at the State Police Barracks in Embreville, who indicated that state police might consider a sub-station in Devault but would be more amenable to space if it were in an official municipal building. The space would have to conform to their specifications from Harrisburg. Mr. Motel said the Township's 6.2 acre parcel has room for both a municipal building and a park, but questioned how much ground an expanded boulevard for Whitehorse Road would take. Ms. Peck estimated it would be 90 feet wide, with parking along the sides and an island in the middle. Mr. Comitta said that a 5,000 square foot maximum size per establishment could work in a 60,000 square foot building. He said allowing 12,000 square feet for any one use would give more flexibility. Mr. Townes noted that the acreage yield will decrease for smaller buildings due to the inclusion of walkways and alleys. Mr. Motel said a store like Trader Joes would need about 12,000 square feet but thought it would cause a parking problem. Mr. Townes said he didn't believe it would be a problem, judging from others he's familiar with, though Mr. Allen said the store at the Gateway Shopping Center is a huge traffic generator. Mr. Motel asked about fast food restaurants, which no one wanted to include. Ms. Peck suggested that the ordinance specify no drive-through is permitted which would rule them out. Mr. Motel asked what about a drive through for a bank, and Mr. Townes said they can specify allowing a use for "restaurants without drive-through". Mr. Churchill suggested they consider the uses they do want. Mr. Motel said his list includes a bank, restaurant, fitness club, drug store, and professional office. Mr. Allen suggested listing uses as permitted principal uses and "similar", so as not to rule out uses not listed. Mr. Comitta referred to the list of uses in Section 2206.A, where some are shown as conditional uses and others as principal uses. Mr. Motel suggested either eliminating the conditional uses and allowing all by right since the design standards give the Township a lot of control, or, arrive at the list first, and then decide which should be by conditional use. He suggested creating a chart where, for each use, associated factors would be considered, such as parking. Ms. Peck suggested referencing the list of businesses at the Haile Village Center to develop the list. Mr. Allen said the land in Devault has a certain value now, and questioned how improvements under a TND ordinance would be paid for, giving Mr. Fillippo's parcel as an example. Mr. Motel said this could be incentived for the developer/owner by including some residential. He said that in previous discussions, there was some concern that townhouses in this area would be isolated from other communities, yet allowing more commercial would be excessive. Mr. Townes asked why not consider small flat residential, such as on the 2nd or 3rd story over a retail shop, suggesting a ratio of 2 residential units to 1 retail unit. He said the key is to limit both the size and number of residential units. He gave Dilworth as an example, a TND outside of Charlotte, North Carolina. Although on a much larger scale, the features are that one side of the building is residential and the other side retail and offices on the first floor with residential above. Ms. Peck agreed this would create value over commercial only. Mr. Motel asked about access to the 2nd and 3rd floor, and Mr. Townes commented the units are expensive, and some have elevators, although others have only stairs. Some have just first floor living with a loft. Mr. Reis said there is something similar in Phoenixville above the Iron Hill Brewery. Mr. Motel said live-work units can be considered as well, and Ms. Peck said the access for this type of unit is usually different from the flats, with interior access to both the residence and business instead of only separate exterior accesses. Mr. Comitta asked if, given the complexity of the TND-2 area, should Tyler-Griffin (TND-4) and the Quarry/Asphalt Plant (TND-5) still be considered for TND? Mr. Motel said he thought Tyler-Griffin should definitely be included, and suggested they consider the Quarry and asphalt plant later. Discussions continued on the following sections of the Ordinance: Section 2209.B.1.c. & d. Move this language to Design Standards. Section 2209.B.1.e. Agreed to add this section requiring a 3-D color rendering and moving it to Design Standards. Section 2209.B.1.f. Agreed to add this section in which Mr. Motel said he'd like to include a requirement that the applicant provide an explanation of how his plan promotes a TND with such features as walkability, diminishing dependence on the automobile, etc. The language, however, would be moved to Design Standards. Section 2209.B.2. Mr. Allen suggested including bikes and bike access - not bike lanes, but paths. Section 2209.B.4. Simplify language. Section 2209.B.8 Move to Design Manual Book. Agreed with Mr. Townes' comment that the appearance of utilities should be given attention in the design guidelines, as he sees them as the least attractive features in some existing TND's. Section 2209.B.9 Agreed with Mr. Townes' comments to incorporate similar components in architectural style and character. Section 2209.B.10 Agreed to add section on a Plan for Recreation. Section 2209.C. Mr. Allen said Mrs. Leland's suggestion of providing incentives for energy conserving building design is good. Mr. Motel asked about meeting with PennDOT with regard to changes to Whitehorse Road. Mr. Kohli said he can set up a meeting, and added that funding is available from the state for green space, sidewalks, traffic calming, etc. that the Township should investigate. Mr. Comitta added there are grants relating to "hometown streets" and "safety to schools". Mr. Motel asked for volunteers to be point people on the road issue to meet with PennDOT and investigate grants. Mrs. Leland volunteered and will draft a second person. Resident Rob Loose said he appreciated the big task the Planning Commission is taking on, and communicated his disappointment, shared by the Planning Commission, that there were not more residents in attendance. He said they are frustrated by the slow pace and tedious nature of the discussions, and suggested the Planning Commission notify the public before any meeting where they expect to take action, as this may bring out more people. Mr. Comitta will incorporate the comments on the Ordinance made over the last several meetings and provide a revised draft for the November 14th meeting. Adjournment: The meeting was adjourned at 10:20 P.M. The next meeting is scheduled for November 14, 2006, 7:30 P.M. at the Great Valley Middle School. Respectfully submitted, Linda M. Csete Planning Commission Secretary

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