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June 12, 2007   CHARLESTOWN TOWNSHIP PLANNING COMMISSION GREAT VALLEY MIDDLE SCHOOL, 7:30 P.M. June 12, 2007 Present: Mike Allen, Vice Chairman, June Gorman, Sarah Peck, Rick Reis, Michael Churchill, Wendy Leland (arrived later), Tom Comitta, Surender Kohli, and Linda Csete. Call to Order: 7:37 PM Announcements Mr. Reis announced that the Phoenixville Regional Planning Commission expects to have the proposed Comprehensive Plan out by the end of the week. The goal is for the member municipalities to adopt the Plan in the August-September time frame. Approval of Minutes May 22, 2007 Minutes Mrs. Gorman had a correction to the first sentence of page two, to remove "Mrs. Gorman said she wants to see enough space to back out and drive forward instead of having to back out of the entire alley" and replace it with "Mrs. Gorman said she wants to see enough space to back out of the driveways and drive forward with minimal danger of hitting another car, building, or landscaping." Mr. Reis moved to approve the May 22, 2007 minutes and Ms. Peck seconded. Mr. Allen called for discussion, and there being none, called the vote. All were in favor. Review Apostolic Christian Church - Preliminary Land Development Allan Zimmerman, P.E., Commonwealth Engineers and John Lanz, Apostolic Christian Church were present to discuss the preliminary subdivision an land development plan for the Apostolic Christian Church on Phoenixville Pike. Mr. Zimmerman provided some background on the application. They plan to expand the church and redesign the parking lot and entrance drive. The preliminary plan addresses the parking lot and entrance drive only, with the plans for the church expansion to be submitted at a future date. The plan also includes a minor subdivision that will take a small amount of land from the Church property and add to the adjacent Charlestown Paving property to the west. Mr. Zimmerman said the Church has been granted variances and conditional use approval, most of which were related to construction in steep and very steep slopes. The parking lot expansion creates the need for additional stormwater management and the approval of an NPDES permit. The NPDES application will be submitted for review later this week. Mr. Zimmerman addressed items on Mr. Kohli's review letter dated 5/24/07 as follows: Items #6 & #7: Mr. Zimmerman said they will be seeking a waiver from the Supervisors on the width of the parking lot aisles, to allow for 16 feet instead of the required 20 feet, and smaller parking stalls of 10 feet x 18 feet instead of 10 feet x 20 feet. Ms. Peck asked if the applicant was agreeable to one-way traffic only, should the aisles be reduced to 16 feet, and Mr. Zimmerman said yes. The Planning Commission indicated they had no objections to these waiver requests. Mr. Churchill asked if placing some parking space in reserve with a permeable surface would make sense, since the church expansion will be done at a later time. Mr. Lanz said they're planning to build the addition within a year. Mr. Churchill asked if they anticipate needing all the parking when the addition is completed, and Mr. Lanz said no. The parking is based on the number of seats in the church, according to the ordinance. Mr. Zimmerman indicated they want to avoid the need to return to the zoning hearing board for additional variances, which would happen if they don't construct all the parking at one time. Mr. Allen added that constructing the parking all at once would be more cost efficient. Mr. Churchill asked that they consider any options to lessen the impervious coverage in the short term, and they indicated they would be willing to consider it. Ms. Peck said while the cost may be higher to leave some of the parking area as stone and pave later, in the meantime they will earn interest on the cost savings. (Mrs. Leland arrived at this time.) Mr. Kohli said if the zoning ordinance requires the paving now, they will have to do it, as they didn't ask for a variance on this during their hearing process. Item #19: Mr. Zimmerman asked for clarification that the driveway must be redesigned within the road right of way to keep the maximum grade at 4% or below. Mr. Kohli said that this will be a requirement of PennDOT. Mr. Allen asked about the runoff from the Turnpike, which goes into an upper infiltration bed, then a lower one, through a pipe to a sumped area. He asks if they are required to handle the Turnpike runoff, and whether the first infiltration bed will get overwhelmed. Mr. Kohli said no, some of the water will bypass this bed. Mr. Churchill asked what will happen if the Turnpike expands, and Mr. Zimmerman said they will be required to design and construct their own stormwater management. Mr. Allen asked if they received the review letter from the County Planning Commission, which covers many of the same stormwater concerns as in Mr. Kohli's review. He suggests Mr. Zimmerman coordinate these matters with Mr. Kohli. Mr. Zimmerman added that the NPDES application will also be reviewed by the DEP, so there will be quite a bit of feedback on stormwater. Mr. Zimmerman addressed items on Mr. Comitta's review memorandum dated 6/5/07 as follows: Item #5: Mr. Zimmerman asked for clarification on whether the Township thinks the eight foot wide raised planting islands are necessary, as the zoning ordinance says they shall be provided "as necessary", indicating there's some room for judgment rather than it being a specific requirement. He interprets it's not necessary for this small parking lot, as including the islands as specified would require further encroachment into steep slopes. Mr. Kohli asked for the width of the center island now shown on the plans, and Mr. Zimmerman said he believed it is four feet. Mr., Kohli said the Planning Commission talked earlier of reducing the lot size to encroach less into the slopes, and Mr. Allen indicated he finds the islands as shown on the plans to be acceptable. Ms. Peck agreed. Mr. Allen asked about the lighting plan, and Mr. Zimmerman said he'll have this plan ready for the next meeting. With regard to landscape screening, Mr. Zimmerman said he'd like to go over these requirements with Mr. Comitta, and Mr. Allen said that would be acceptable. The applicant will return to the Planning Commission following submission of revised plans. Charlestown Oaks Mr. Allen referred to a question raised at the last meeting on how the lower entrance area at Charlestown Oaks has too many trees planted too close together, which will result in many not surviving. He asked if there is a flaw in the ordinance that should be corrected or if there was another reason why this problem occurred. Mr. Comitta said he'll confer with Mr. Theurkauf on this matter and respond to the Commission. Mrs. Gorman said the residents recommended to the Homeowners Association that they work with a landscaper to identify and remove what they termed "nonsensical trees". This will be at a great expense to the HOA. Traditional Neighborhood Development (TND) Ordinance Mr. Allen said he, Andy Motel, Kevin Kuhn, Michael Rodgers, Jack Loew and Tim Townes met to discuss how to move forward on Spring Oaks as part of the TND. The TND ordinance is now in front of the Supervisors with a hearing advertised for June 18th, but he'd like to work in tandem with that process to keep things moving. With regard to the June 18th hearing, he asked that all Planning Commission members make an effort to attend for their presentation to the Supervisors and to express any issues they might have. Mr. Allen said the Planning Commission has looked at the TND ordinance and the TND sketch plan for Spring Oaks, which were the first major steps. Next, the developer prepares a manual of written and graphic design guidelines. Mr. Allen asked if the sketch plan already submitted should be incorporated into this manual. Mr. Townes said they will need the sketch plan to work from. Ms. Peck said there's a chicken and egg dilemma with regard to how much to invest in engineering during the creation of the design manual. Mr. Allen said the plan locks many of the features in, including density, which the Supervisors will have to make a determination on. He said they should have an approved sketch plan before moving to the next step. Mr. Townes said he sees the plan book as being developed after a working concept plan, including grading, is prepared. In general the items worked out during a preliminary plan stage, including stormwater management, should be incorporated into the concept plan. The Planning Commission agreed this would be the best approach. Mr. Allen suggested the Township handle this process as it has been done elsewhere by doing the following in order to work more expeditiously with the developer to save time and money. The Supervisors will appoint a subcommittee, consisting of one supervisor and one alternate, one planning commission member and one alternate, an architect, a planner (Mr. Comitta) and one person from the community at large. This group would report to the Supervisors and focus on the residential component of the TND only, although they'll keep the commercial and retail areas in mind. Mr. Churchill said the subcommittee approach makes sense for the residential component of the TND. Mr. Townes said the sketch (concept) plan should still be developed at the Planning Commission level. Mr. Churchill said in addition, the committee should refer back to the Planning Commission on specific issues as needed. Mr. Allen said Tom Fillippo's parcel adjacent to Spring Oaks should be included in the process and the Planning Commission will ask him to get involved and start his part of the process. Ms. Peck asked for the status of Mr. Fillippo's proposed office building on another of his parcels, and Mr. Allen said Mr. Fillippo is waiting for the TND ordinance to pass but is anxious to move forward. Ms. Peck suggested that the Planning Commission obtain a copy of the design manual for Lantern Hill, which Mr. Comitta said he will provide. John Mosteller, Dewey Homes, offered to provide an architectural covenants document. Ms. Peck said the committee members will need to understand design, and asked why appoint an individual from the community who's not an expert in this field. Mr. Churchill said having a member from the community will be a link to the community at large. That individual will have a vested interest in incorporating as much quality in the design as possible and may have more time than the other members to scrutinize details. Mrs. Leland asked if they have someone in mind to appoint as the community member, and Mr. Allen said no. Mrs. Leland asked how often the committee would meet, and Mr. Allen indicated they would meet frequently. Mr. Mosteller suggested that meeting once a week would be sufficient. The subcommittee can help the developer from going down a wrong path in the process. Mr. Townes agreed that they will need the more frequent feedback a committee can offer. Ms. Peck asked if the committee meetings would be advertised and open to the public. Mr. Allen said he didn't see why not. Mrs. Leland was concerned that the committee not add another layer of bureaucracy to the process. Mr. Churchill said the Planning Commission must deal with the density issue and make a recommendation to the Supervisors. He looked at the analysis prepared by J. Loew and felt that they don't have the hard numbers to really understand enough to make a solid recommendation. Ms. Peck recused herself at this time. Mr. Churchill said that in reviewing the analysis, he could justify a range of 25-40% additional density over the 126 units by-right on the Spring Oaks parcel. An average of this range would be about 1/3 more units, which translates into 40 additional. He assumed a 5% profit and felt that the 40 additional units come close to meeting the increased costs and was a figure he could justify. This would translate into 166 units for the site. Mr. Reis said they need to understand some of the other impacts, not just for the residential parcels but the entire TND area. Also, in addition to Spring Oaks and Mr. Fillippo's residential parcel, there is residential on the Tyler-Griffin tract, a CCRC on the quarry parcel and an apartment complex in Area 2. Ms. Peck said they have to look at the tradeoffs. Mr. Churchill said he'd be willing to allow 40 additional units on Spring Oaks in exchange for the higher quality design. Mr. Allen said that a large part of the determination on density is abstract. Mrs. Leland asked if a yield had been estimated for Mr. Fillippo's residential parcel adjacent to Spring Oaks. She asked how much additional traffic will spill out onto Whitehorse Road and Rees Road when this parcel is added. Ms. Peck said they need a demographic projection, as there is the possibility that, contrary to the usual belief that the school district will have an ever increasing enrollment in the future, there may not be enough children. Mr. Allen said the Planning Commission should continue to gather this information while the hearings are underway. He said that in a meeting he attended last month with Andy Motel and Tom Comitta, Mr. Comitta contacted a developer from Lancaster County that has a great deal of TND experience for feedback on what density would be needed on Spring Oaks. Without prompting, the response was 180 units, very close to the 183 units Jack Loew indicated was his break even point. Mr. Comitta said the individual he spoke with was Jamie Brubacker of Charter Homes. This firm has built four TNDs and has three more under construction. He asked them to look at the costs of a TND versus conventional development, and they indicated the cost is approximately 25% more to the developer as a base to cover the increased cost of alleys, parks, civic spaces, etc. Another 15% is needed for the builder to enhance the design of the buildings. Mr. Mosteller said that the sales price of a 3,000 square foot home on an 8,000 square foot lot is smaller than the same house on a larger lot, even with the additional design amenities. Buyers will pay $650,000 for such a house, not the $800,000 they will pay for the same house on the larger lot. Mr. Churchill said he trusts J. Loew and understands there are a wide range of factors in play, with both the developer and township wanting to protect themselves. The question in the end is whether the TND result is what the township wants, whether it is worth the additional density. Mr. Townes calculated the density for 166 units at 2.96 units per net acre, or 2.55 units per gross acre. Mr. Allen asked for input on what information is needed for the Planning Commission to make a recommendation on density. He said Mr. Townes provided him with the financials and associated demographic information and he'll distribute it to the other members. Mr. Townes said they created an economic model and backed into the density they would need to get it. Mr. Reis said they need to consider the impacts of the quarry property as well, and include impacts for the whole TND relative to water, sewer, schools and traffic. Mr. Allen said only the two RC-zoned parcels impact the schools. Ms. Peck noted that sewer capacity is a self-limiting factor. Mr. Townes said with two 16" water mains in Whitehorse Road, public water is not a problem. With regard to traffic, Ms. Peck said the planned widening of Route 29 will help. Mr. Townes reminded the Planning Commission that the road improvements associated with the approved Spring Oaks Business Park are already in place. Ms. Peck said that the Business Park would generate more traffic than the built out TND area in its entirety. Ms. Peck asked for an indication of where the Planning Commission stood on Mr. Churchill's figure of 166 units and noted that everyone with the exception of Mr. Reis accepted this figure as a minimum number of units. Mr. Comitta said he obtained figures from the Charter Homes estimator that he can circulate to the commission members. Mr. Brubacker told him they had a bad experience with costs in one of their projects due to the need for too many retaining walls and extended phasing of the project into 5 phases. He said they learned they need to rough grade the entire site at one time to keep these costs in check. Mr. Comitta said this company has a lot of in-house expertise with estimating TND costs and they could be a useful resource. Mr. Allen asked that in preparation for the next meeting on June 26th, the Planning Commission members be prepared with their analysis of J. Loew's financial numbers and provide a rationale for their conclusions. Any questions should be circulated by email ahead of the meeting. The meeting will focus strictly on the density issue. Adjournment: The meeting was adjourned at 9:45 P.M. Respectfully submitted, Linda M. Csete Planning Commission Secretary

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